Showing posts with label FamilySearch. Show all posts
Showing posts with label FamilySearch. Show all posts

Saturday, August 16, 2025

THE OFFICIAL WORD ON CIVIL RECORDS (VITAL RECORDS) TO BE ORDERED FROM HUNGARY : HUNGARIAN CEMETERIES , READING DEATH RECORDS, GENEALOGY RESEARCH IN HUNGARY #2


In 1895 Hungary began to require civil records (also called vital records) of deaths, marriages, and births to be kept by the government. Before that, records were to be kept by Christian churches or Jewish temples. You may be able to get both is some cases.

Privacy laws in Hungary are not the same as in the United States. Birth registers are kept closed for 90 (ninety) years. Marriage registers are kept closed for 60 (sixty) years.  Death registers are closed for 30 (thirty) years. 

And what you can order from Hungary also has to do with the map, because Hungary can only send you what is available in PRESENT DAY HUNGARY.  So you may have to find records now housed in another country.


If your Hungarian ancestors lived in what is now SLOVAKIA, you have to deal with Slovakia.  The site I'm linking to gives extensive information and is the work of Bill Tarkilich, to whom we are grateful.  IABSI -SLOVAKIA BILL

You may also find that your Hungarian ancestor lived in a place that became Yugoslavia, Austria, Romania... I did run into a problem when trying to retrieve Baptismal records (as a stand in for civil records) for a friend whose "Italian" family was in what was considered Yugoslavia, at the time of her grandfather's birth. The Diocese archive we contacted (in Italy) during Covid did not respond to us at all, the records were not in the Latter Day Saint's FamilySeach collection, and the local consulate was also unhelpful. She wanted Italian citizenship based on that grandfather, and I was unable to find out if Italy considers the course of history when identifying someone as Italian...

That said, it is possible that, though the place where someone was when they died is now in another country, their death record is still held by a diocese that was in Hungary at the time.

FamilySearch does have some civil death records in its database and I find searching by location is a first step.

So - If you have a very long-lived ancestor, you may just be in luck to find that when they died the civil registration was in place.  And on that death record there just might be the marriage or parentage you seek, either a confirmation of such OR new information. The civil death records also have addresses.  These may not align with current addresses...  You might want to ask when you get to tour the village!

C 2025  Magyar-American BlogSpot  All Rights Reserved including Internet and International Rights.   This genealogy series can be brought up using the tag Hungary Death Records - Gen Tips 

Saturday, September 30, 2023

MISSING CHURCH RECORDS ? WOOPS! DID YOU READ THAT RIGHT? OR IS IT AN INDEXING ERROR? : HUNGARIAN GENEALOGY PRO TIP #4

MISSING CHURCH RECORDS ? WOOPS!  DID YOU READ THAT RIGHT? OR IS IT AN INDEXING ERROR? : HUNGARIAN GENEALOGY PRO TIP #4

Reading the records correctly may also help you turn up the missing ancestor, the ancestor you cannot find on the church records.  By records I mean the source material that was long ago filmed at an archive, put onto microfilm, and then digitalized and put into a database.



So here is where I'm going to complain about the indexing that appears on FamilySearch, which is the best database to use in the United States if you're doing Hungarian research. You really do have to go page by page looking for marriages and deaths. I can tell you that I rarely, if ever, can count on the indexing. If it brings something I was searching for up, easy, one - two - three, that's great. But I actually spend as much time as I used to spinning microfilm in viewing machines going page by page on the records on the computer. I think the microfilm spinning was easier on my eyes and my body.

For those of you who are beginning to research, you can use those church Baptismal records to build family groups, finding the children that were born of a couple until there seems to be no more. Then say the first child was born in 1820.  You can use that date and look for marriages 1820 and back. Since people died younger, there were often quick remarriages and half siblings and step-siblings.

The advantage to the microfilm having been digitized is that the" viewer" gadget allows us to change the brightness and contrast to bring out the best of the page.  Also I can sit at home or even go to the beach area with a modem and work remotely without traveling. I can also print out at a library terminal remotely and go in and get my copies, though, I don't always get the quality of the printing I would like. Yes, that can make it easier for me since I'm now a bit of a commute from my best Family History Library run by the Latter Day Saints, who own FamilySearch.  An advantage is that I don't have to pay for a film and wait for it, nor hurry into the library to use it before it has to be returned. The fees were reasonable back in the day.  However, you can't order ANY films in anymore, and that's not good. My understanding is that the cabinets are still full of microfilms that were planted there at some Family History Libraries, but it seems that when I check for a location it always says the Salt Lake location, which is a massive library, but one I'd have to travel to.

All those advantages given, there are just so many errors. Dropping endings of surnames creates a database full of abbreviated names.  For instance there is a surname Hornyak.  I'm finding Horyanszke and Horanszke's who are listed as Hornyaks...

The indexers were not knowledgeable of Hungarian names, as if they were, then some of the bad handwriting could have been transcribed closer to the spelling of the Hungarian names. 

I know that surnames spelling through history was not as stable as it seems to be right now. I'm aware that some names have one t or two, and so on.  Even if your search the surnames within the National Archives of Hungary site, Hungaricana, you may find these variations. 

Sometimes you're going to see suffixes that vary as well, depending on how close to the Polish border or how Slovak the area.  You could say these are Slavic variations of Hungarian names and I know that in Slovakia they say some of these people were Slovaks from the start and not Hungarian. Or the priest who wrote the church record was.records of a marriage, baptism, or death was not Hungarian and wrote names his way. You might see some words in Latin, some in Hungarian. Still, there are hundreds of Hungarian surnames that there is reference for, but the indexers did not know it or research it.


Perhaps your ancestor was indexed and the problem was that the indexer did not get it that the person was a twin or triplet and thinks that the two or three names belong to one person when two or three babies were baptized

When I see two or more given names I look for the word gemelli, Latin for twins. Hungarian for twins is ikrek.  

I also look to see how many godparents are listed for a person. If there are two names and two sets of godparents, you're probably looking at twins. (The godparents will almost always be one male person and one female person, though not always a married couple. 

Marriages can have two to four men as witnesses, again these may or may not be relatives. In some places you might see the same men showing up as witnesses time and time again. There are three scenarios as to why. One is that they actually were asked or are related or know the people who married. The second is that there were some people who sort of hung out at the church who were always available to witness. This may sound ridiculous until you remember that people died young and children were left orphaned so it's possible that by the time they married they had no parents or siblings left to show up. The third is that the witnesses are important people, such as employers, often the landowner the groom works for, or the local nobility. The witnesses are there for more than religious reasons.  (With marriage and birth come possible inheritance rights.)

If the baby was given four or more names at baptism, it's likely they are of a high noble family.  Is it mentioned that they are noble or that their godparents are?

There may have been a custom of giving a baby a certain number of names at at baptism depending on their status.  (King Charles III was baptized with twelve, I believe, and when he married Diana Spencer, she was to say four of them at her wedding to Charles but flubbed the order of his names.)

So...

Two names, one set of godparents, no mention that this is twins, a lower noble.

Sometimes the only reason we can tell that there were two babies born and not one was the death record or notation on one of them.

(Though it is possible that some Hungarian people had started giving their babies more than one name, a more German custom, I'm not swayed.)


Then there are marriage records. Again, if the bride and/or groom was born to a Baronial family, they may have more than two testimonials otherwise thought of as witnesses or sponsors to their marriage, and the chances are good at least one if not all these people are also listed as nobles.

Remember that these records were just like legal records at the time. This is why illegitimacy was so remarked upon, because the child was born with no support, no rights to inheritance. Keeping a genealogy helped determine where titles and property were to go when someone died and our ancestors died way younger than us.  (I recently found a death notation of a woman who was 113 years old, which is truly the oldest I've encountered and put her birth into the 1600's! That said, here we are calling 60, an age most our ancestors never lived to be, "The New 40.")

Barons usually owned castles though the term castle is often applied to not a fortress with a moat or defense features but a house or estate bigger than most of the families around had.

Spuria is an archaic term for illegitimate.

But you may notice that not in every case where the word Spuria appears is the Father Unknown.  His name may be written right there and the word Spuria. So that means he came forward as the father for the baptism but the couple is not married.  (A good sign. Perhaps he intends to marry the mother or has pledged his financial support.)

In Hungarian Father Unknown is written apja ismeretlen.

If the mother died in childbirth, it might say mother died - anya meghalt.

What happened when a woman gave birth to a baby too young to have lived? A miscarriage?  If the child was baptized, often by a midwife, upon delivery, and named, it appears in the church record. You might see a notation of that, the midwife named.  Baptism by someone who is not clergy is still done today and valid.

Why would a woman have an illegitimate child in a culture and religion that is very much against it? After all, there is no Welfare.

Well, women were raped then too.  Women and men had affairs. Sometimes the couple loved each other and wanted to be together but there was no parental approval, because of class differences or because there was no money.  Any story that could happen today could've happen then. 


I ENCOURAGE YOU !

A way to check if a badly spelled name in an index can be coaxed forth into a Hungarian name that makes sense is to:

Keep reading the records until you find a more clearly written area and see if the name comes up again clearly written and spelled.  

(Blessings to those who cared so much to be neat and beautiful in their writing that it almost appears to be calligraphy! Let them inspire us to also be neat and beautiful in our writing and printing as we keep our records.)

Run the name through the database spelled that way and see if there are more coming up like that.  

Try running the spelling you think is right on the general internet which on Google has correction and suggestion features. Chances are some families alive today have the surname.  If none comes up, something is wrong with the spelling.

Some websites mention the surnames that appeared in phone books back in the day, so you might see if the name appeared in a Hungarian phone book.

Remember that the letter that looks like a small f substitutes in for a small s.

Also the letter V and the letter W are interchangeable. 

The letter that looks like a Capital Y, is probably a Capital T.

Andrassy may look like Andraffy.

Palffy, however is correct as Palffy.

Yovenko is likely Tovenko.

Ke may actually be Szke.

ai endings may eventually turn into ey: Szendrai - Szendray  Szendrey.

It is true that many a noble Hungarian has a surname that links to the family stead, a location. However the House or Family Clan may have a variety of surnames within in as well, that do not sound like the name of a location.  Over the decades the family probably fanned out.   As a man of Hungarian noble heritage told me last year, his family went long distances for marriages, even to Italy.

Remember that we are not all looking to link to nobility for reasons of our own status. Nobility was abolished mid 1800s in Hungary and upon American citizenship Hungarians of noble heritage gave it all up.  Hungarian-Americans seek noble status while researching their genealogy because we're genealogy fanatics who can't stop researching and the link to nobility sometimes leads to records that allow us go way back - even into the 12th century!

C 2023-2025 Magyar-American BlogSpot  All Rights Reserved including Internet and International Rights

To bring up all posts in this series click on the tag/label Gen Pro Tip : Missing ? Church Records

Saturday, March 4, 2023

1867 COMPROMISE MILITARY RECORDS - WHEN AUSTRIA RULED HUNGARY : TRANSLATING THE DOCUMENTS : HUNGARIAN GENEALOGY PRO TIP # 2

1867 COMPROMISE MILITARY RECORDS - WHEN AUSTRIA RULED HUNGARY : TRANSLATING THE DOCUMENTS : HUNGARIAN GENEALOGY PRO TIP # 2 

Depending on church records mostly for your research, you may find notations on marriages in particular that the groom is an officer -  tiszt,  or a soldier - hajdu, or you might see the word hadsereg - army. (Some men married by proxy while serving!) There might be a notation on a child's baptism that the father is serving. 

I'm using FamilySearch TM and the following records to discuss how to use these.  

Specifically, I'm using the following record group.

Katonai nyilvantartasi jegyzek 1863-1888   (List of Military Records) 

Gonc  Hadkiegeszito Parancsnoksag (Main Author)

Published in 1962 by Filmre vette a Genealogical Society of Utah 

I'm using film #008737879 and film #008737839 (but there are four categories available.)

These are Muster Rolls from the Gonc Military District.

There are notes that this film covers the years 1866-1876 (and birth dates 1841-46 and 1850 - 1856, suggesting that there are missing pages for men born 1847-1849) However another film many include some men born during that period.

These records are from Abauj county.  Before the split up of Hungary, Abauj county had much more territory than it does now, when parts of it are now Slovakia and towns now have Slovak names.  So these records have the potential to cover a lot of territory.

Some of the places mentioned include Goncruska, Szanto, Telki Banya, Fony, Crizoly, Also Reymecz, Ujfalu, Felso Dobfzu, Hejcze, Hermad Keres, ...

Gonc (also seen in archival records as Goncz and Gontz) was historically a civic center, a place of governmental administration, though it appears to be a small, unimportant town today. These military records include those men who came from the surrounding area. The four categories hold records that are thousands of pages and no index is forthcoming. In fact, I sense that the original records that FamilySearch microfilmed decades ago in archives within Hungary, were intended as a kind of index. But more on that later. *********

My experience:

First of all the FamilySearch SEARCH function in which you put in the film number was not working. I'd taken down the number 8737879 on notes and tried to use it in their SEARCH feature to bring it up. It did not work. I tried it with and without the 00 in front of the number.  I tried it multiple times.

Therefore, you may have to bring these up by going into the CATALOG function. Search in the CATALOG for Gonc (the name of the town) and then choose military records. You'll see the word Gonc twice as it is the town AND the Military District

Across the top of the records you will see columns/categories of information which are in Hungarian and sometimes in Hungarian and Old German lettering. Some of these were not properly written in the first place. So here are the corrections, sans the accent marks.

THE COLUMNS  

(Please note that this discussion covers the version used quite a bit but there is also a shorter version and a longer version existing on this film.)

1) a kozseg neve de osszeir asi jegyzekenek szama

This translates to "the name of the group and the number of notes."

In general this means "Where the person is from" because the name of the group is named after the town.  (This does not necessarily mean that this is where a soldier was born but think of it was where the person was living when it came time to serve in the military.  And there is a good chance it is also where they were born.)

On pages to the far left you will see a list of numbers, and that is where they hand wrote the numbers of notes otherwise thought of as "items."

2) Sorz szam

This translates to "Serial Number" and I see that this column is often blank.

3) A hadkötelesnek csaladi es kereszt vagy elo neve

This translates to "The conscript's family name and first and last name."

This sounds awkward.  It might be thought of as "soldier's name, first and last" however, I believe it is stated this way because sometimes a "family name" is not the same as the soldier's first and last name. This is because there is an understanding that some people come from a "House" such as a Noble House or a Clan (which would be the family name) and within that House  or Clan they have another name.  For instance, as a made up example, a person might be going by the name Janos Kovacs but come from a noble lineage Andrassy. On other records you might also see this written Janos Kovacs alias Andrassy.  There could be a variety of surnames that are associated with the House or Clan, harkening back to the ancient days. After looking at hundreds of pages, I haven't seen this written in, but the column heading allows for that possibility. Instead we are finding a first and last (or surname) simply with notation that the person is a noble. 

4) Szuletesi i eve

Translates to "year of birth."  Ahmm.  Birthday

Usually only a year is given.  But this is where you must be careful not to assume. The records are arranged so that the men are listed by year born, and the older they are, the earlier that year. And the older they are - in general - the LATER they are on the record/film. It's too bad full birth dates are not given. 

As I click along, reading page after page, I see that some effort is also made to group men by their home location.

5) szylet es helye  

translation? year and place  Think Location, Location, Location,

jaras is singular form of jarasok translating to district.  The Hungarian megye (county) was further divided by districts. Think of an American county, further divided by Townships.

megye means county

orszag means country

In general I see the name of a town listed again, often matching the first one mentioned.  So a man served or was in the reserves fairly close to home.

 6) vallas allapot - religious background

These records include men of Catholic (R.K.), Reform (Ref.) (Protestant), and Jewish background. They overall include people of all religious backgrounds. Greek Catholic (Gr.C.) may indicate that the family has Carptho-Rus (Ruthenian, Rusyn) heritage, or Ukrainian, or Slovak.  Evangelical (Eve) indicates they are Lutheran, indicating the family may have German heritage. Zsido is the term used for Jewish, though I have also seen Israelite (Isr).

Notlen - unmarried

Nos - married

Gyermek - child  (implied is a father)

vagy azok or those

nelkul - without

(Who would make a better recruit? A man who needs to support a family or man who won't leave a wife and children if he dies in military service?)

7 - 10) 

tudasa - awareness  (i.e. is this person intelligent? informed?  Educated? Have any special skills?)

olvasus - reading

iras - writing

zene - music

mesterseg - handyman

(This is about a man's education, and so how he might be useful to the military.  I like that they ask if the person knows music. Implied he plays an instrument or sings which might be useful if they march.)

11) az atyanak csaladi kereszt vagy eloneve

This translates to the father's family cross or first name...

The "family cross" is implied to be the family shield/ name, again this refers to noble House or Clan.

What I see in general is the name of parents (implied unmarried soldier) or the name of a wife (if married) but read across-

12) haz szam helyseg kozseg hol a hadkote les lakik

translates to "house number, location, district, where the soldier lives."

If this is filled out, it could be interesting.  It might tie into church records and other census.  It's a possible lead or secondary document.  

13) test nagy saga translates to the saga of the body or body story  hmmm....

test nagy saga translates to... I admit this word choice seems strange but it seems to be saying... "According to the little bird."  And we used to say "A little bird told me..." to indicate gossip - something personal.

Roughly, what does this person say about their health? How big are they? Basically it appears to be all about how TALL they are, and based on contemporary heights, these men are seemingly about as tall as Napoleon...  I see this column is left empty quite a bit.

On some forms:

mell merteke - breast courage  indicates a measurement size of chest . They need uniforms. (I see a soldier standing straight up to full height and sticking out their chest!)

Overall I'm reminded that people seem to have grown taller through the decades, because we have better nutrition. 

14) lelet az utolso allitasnal   Finding with the last alliteration/statement.

le lett az utolso   The last one is down.

Let's try the German :  

befund bei der bebten stellung  means "findings in the trembling position"?...

So - my genealogy friends - this seems to be asking "When the going gets rough, how does this man bear up? How does he act? Does he have courage? Or is he a weakling?

Hajdu means soldier.  So when I see hajdu written in, I figure that man has passed some test of courage or endurance or wit.

15) az ava stasi bizott many lelete reszrol  Findings /basis for findings by the committee/ commission

Katona - Military   Polgar - Civil

The absence of notes in this column indicate to me that this was probably only used if a soldier got himself in some trouble and therefore had to go into some review in which he was judged and some determination was made.

16)  az avatottnak be osztas  - for the initiated

iranti  - on

ki va - who is

na ta  - so there you are

I tried a translation from the German and it was worse.  asically, I believe this column is to express information on who is who, what their rank is. 

17) az avatas napja az ezred - the day of initiation is the regiment

Hadtest - corps

vagy osztaly neve - or class name

melyhez beosztatott - to which he was assigned

18) eszrevetel - perception (final assessment overall)

Other words encountered:

korostaly - old age.  These men are not elderly, they're just a bit older, still in their early twenties, so what is indicated is that they have probably nearer to ending their term of service.

Further the record will state where the person is stationed, if it is not in their hometown. In general it appears that most men served fairly close to their hometown, which probably made visiting family, taking care of personal adult responsibilities, and especially, being a reservist, easier on them and their families. These were agriculture economies in which the men's labor was very much needed.

Commentary:

The records are and are not arranged as one might expect.

Alphabetical, yes, however only by first letter. That means that it may appear to be fully alphabetical, taking into consideration every letter in a surname in some places, but do not be too quick to think the surname you seek is not listed  If the surname you are using begins with Sz, look through ALL of the letter S.  And so on.

To bring up ALL posts in this series click on the label 1867 - Austrian-Hungarian Military Gen Tips 

C 2023-2025 Magyar-American BlogSpot All Rights Reserved including International and Internet Rights. 

Slightly edited on April 8, 2023  


Wednesday, March 3, 2021

NOBILITY IN YOUR HUNGARIAN FAMILY? DOCUMENTS : GENEALOGY PRO TIP #4

NOBILITY IN YOUR HUNGARIAN FAMILY? DOCUMENTS : GENEALOGY PRO TIP #4

What are the first indications that your ancestors were considered to be noble, besides family rumors? 

A notation in a birth, marriage, or death record.

A story: This reminds me of someone I was related to through marriage. I offered to share my research on the line I shared with her spouse and children. I knew that they had been raised with no knowledge of that line because she and her family dominated, and they had been raised to think of themselves as all Italian. 

"Oh no!" she said, waving me off. "There's no need for you to do the research. My cousin did ours all the way back to Queen Antoinette!"

Did she mean Marie Antoinette of France? (Daughter of Marie Theresa?) The "Let them eat cake" Queen who had no children who lived long enough to mate?

Perhaps she meant a noble woman named Antoinette in Southern Italy? I sensed a genealogy confabulation and couldn't help myself. I had to start researching to find their link to any Queen even if she had no interest. 

I discovered their heritage was Sephardic Jewish in Salonika, Greece, and then into Italy with significant marriages between first cousins. The move wasn't recent, so they appeared in Catholic Church records. I never did find a Queen. There was an Italian noble woman whose estate was kind and accepting to Jewish people in the town that the ancestors left in Italy but that surname didn't show up in their lines. Perhaps a story of a kind noble woman who lived on a hill seeped into their family?

Moral of the story?

Don't fake your Genealogy. 

(It's said that 40 % of Italians have Jewish roots. Watching the genealogy series Finding Your Roots, the episode on fashion designer Diane Von Furstenberg's Jewish roots reminded me of this ex relative. DVF also has Salonika roots.)

So, Americans with Hungarian roots depend on the existing church records available for free at FamilySearch which are also part of the Slovak collection. Settlements appear under their Slovak names there. Although it says that Protestant and Jewish records are included, after many years I question that. The headings on columns tend to be in Latin and the handwriting language is in Latin and /or Hungarian. Or a mix - some German.

Due to a recent search for the baptism of someone who just is not coming up in Roman Catholic records I found a new resource based in Hungary. The web site is oskereso.hu and it is birth/Christening, marriage and death records collected by the Hungarian Evangelical Church, (Lutheran). I found the translation interesting. Progenitor Research. Motherly birth certificate? Scan for villages and it appears that where there's an Evangelical Church, there are records. Hidasnemeti, for instance.

I have only found notations that someone marrying a Roman Catholic was Greek Catholic or Jewish a few times in Roman Catholic records and the name appears only due to the intermarriage. Further, as I have, in microfilm days, read Jewish records and Greek Catholic records, they were separate congregations and records/ films. So maybe it's just that my research using the online database hasn't lead to even Protestant records. (Family search has a Reform Baptism Index which doesn't seem to work for me.)

However, it is true that until there were civil records, church records were where birth/ baptism, marriage and death records were kept, and I imagine everyone had to be affiliated with a congregation to be in records. Likely if you lived in the forest or way up on the mountain you might not get to church too often. 

One of my friends deep into her pre–Colonial American research tells me her grandmother's sister was born at home and no birth certificate meant difficulty in getting a driver's license. 

A noble with a private estate and entourage might not go into the village or mix with the commoners to be baptized or married or have a funeral. Unless he or she had built the church maybe. They had private chapels and visits from priests and church dignitaries. Therefore, ecclesiastical records or private estate papers in archives are needed. It's time to seek information through an archive or try Hungaricana.

Considering that nobility privilege was abolished 1848, you'll find that priests were still writing in "nemes", or "nobilis" or notes suggesting a parent is of this status after that. It does not mean they have wealth. But why then would the priest bother to write it in?

Before government funded social welfare systems, there was a strong emphasis on marriage and being ready financially to be married. Women were born into their job descriptions and prepared for the role of woman; bearing children, raising them, and being closer to home to perform household work. A woman might plant and tend a home garden and feed chickens and milk cows. Like Colonial American women, they did what we'd think of as difficult hard labor. They might participate in harvest as well. (There were women who tended farmer's market stands and peddled in towns.)

Men were in charge of supporting wives and children - the traditional work outside the home. In the 19th century the definition of a orphan was a fatherless child. It was understood a child needed a daddy.

A commoner man usually prepared to be a master craftsman or to continue in agriculture or travel for trade. While individuals, families, or communities might lend some support, such as women sharing childcare or all looking after village children, or a just married couple living in the same cottage on a farm, there was no government program to depend on. The facts of life were all around them. 

Religion and culture demanded that first came marriage to a man who could support a family, then children. Young men grew up knowing what was expected of them. A woman was taking a major risk in pregnancy without marriage. I have seen it time and time again in church records, the deaths of babies born to single mothers within months of birth. Yes, children died more quickly in general and women died in childbirth more frequently too - infection, childhood diseases - but all those little handwritten crosses on the birth records are telling. 

This is why the priest wrote in notes about the groom's professional or "condition" / finances and why godparents (and marriage witnesses) were also called "testifiers." This was a reaffirmation of support. However illegitimate children and their mothers were at a distinct disadvantage because people took care of their own first and honestly, some of these babies starved to death.

It's sometimes possible for you to discover that a woman who had a child without marriage then does marry. I always hope the father of her first child was the man she married. That it's a love story.

Why with so much understanding of the need for a husband fit for marriage and pressure to conform were women still having illegitimate children?

We can rarely know the circumstances for certain but rape by soldiers, travelers, and employers - including noble employers - and affairs with married men wasn't unheard of. Poor or unmarried women without family turned to living in as servants and some became prostitutes. People had affairs though it must have been difficult in small settlements to keep it secret. I've also seen "father in America" in notations. 

Let's say you see an illegitimate birth on a church record, the woman is a servant, and the godparents are nobility. Very likely the woman lived in their household. A noble woman may have had higher status than her common neighbors, but she wasn't ruling the roost.

It would be wrong of me not to mention the plight of some of our female ancestors and relatives and the fact that a DNA test might link you to nobility rather than a trail of documents.

Now, another possible way to suspect wealth and / or nobility is when the couple getting married are younger than the usual craftsman apprentice. Nobles sometimes arranged marriage at a distance and sent along a 13- or 14-year-old bride to be raised in her mother in law's household. The groom could be as young, a couple years older, or a much older widowed noble. In 19th century records I've seen 15- and 16-year-old noble brides. Why besides allegiances, fertility, and presumed health?

Because there is money enough to support the family without having to become an apprentice or worker. (Don't be too shocked to see daughters of immigrants to America also marrying that young. There was no time for teenagerhood or extended immaturity. 

That said, you will find there are plenty of impoverished "landless gentry" who had to work. Many went to cities to take government jobs.

If you do find nobility of the higher estate owning type in your heritage, be open to the possibility of linking to a great many other nobles! And to evidence of more travel and movement. The girl next door or the next village is for people who don't get too far from home.

Cherish notes and translate them!

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This post is part of a series on Hungarian Nobility research.  To pull up the series click on the tag Gen Tips - Hungarian Nobility in the Family


Saturday, April 18, 2020

THE 1828 HUNGARIAN PROPERTY TAX CENSUS : KEYS TO USE - INDEX : 1828 CENSUS : HUNGARIAN GENEALOGY PRO TIP #1

THE 1828 HUNGARIAN PROPERTY TAX CENSUS : KEYS TO USE - INDEX : 1828 CENSUS : HUNGARIAN GENEALOGY PRO TIP #1

WILL THE 1828 CENSUS OF HUNGARY HELP YOUR GENEALOGY and FAMILY HISTORY PROJECT?




My first tip about this census is to use the index which may save you time.

If it were not for a woman named Martha Remer Connor, who created an index for some of the 1828 Census of Hungary, there would be no index for this census at all. Ms. Connor was easing the way for us to look at the original census and you may very well save time using her work.

I spent hours looking for surnames in this census, using my cell phone, and made dozens of bookmarks. When I went back into FAMILYSEARCH using those bookmarks, which usually works, they had ALL reset to the start page of the county, rather than the exact pages I bookmarked. It was distressing. Additionally, though there is a SEARCH feature that appears inside of each volume, it did not function correctly for me, and so I had read hundreds of pages one after another in the first place. 

You might have a different experience using it. My advice is to take notes the old fashioned pen-in-hand way.  

Ms. Connor did her indexing years ago at the Las Vegas Family History Center owned by the Latter Day Saints. She typed it up. It's readable. The majority of the surnames are correctly spelled. There are a few iffy ones.  (i.e. There are fairly standardized spellings for Hungarian surnames by 1828 - to check an iffy surname run it through a translator and see if it has a meaning.) Her volumes were microfilmed for public use. These volumes were a monumental effort on her part (Bless her!) but it's NOT a COMPREHENSIVE LIST of ALL COUNTIES in Hungary in 1828.

Using FAMILYSEARCH, go to Search CATALOG, then search for HUNGARY, and then to CENSUS. Open that. Ms. Connor's work is under that listing.

To start, each volume has a good lists of towns and the typed page number of the original manuscript the town will appear on (which is not the same as the image number). Each volume also has at the beginning sketchy black and white maps of old Counties, an illustration of the ways that various handwritten letters were fashioned depending on language - German script different than Latin. 

Most useful of all is an INDEX of surnames by habituation. If you are dealing with a rare surname or a situation where it's clear the people moved from where you've first found them, but you don't know where to, from this might help narrow the locations.

The census COUNTED ONLY PEOPLE WHO OWNE
D PROPERTY - LAND at each location, people who therefore were expected to pay TAXES. You may be surprised at how few people in a location qualified but also what little it took to be qualified. Basically, if you owned* a house then it was on LAND, so you were a taxpayer.

Although each of the 25 volumes has good information about COUNTY LAND OWNERS, the BOOK OF CITIES is volume 13.  

After using the index, you can look at "Vagyonosszeiras 1828" in the FAMILYSEARCH CATALOG.  There were over 300 microfilms. The original census books are in the National Archives of Hungary. Each film has a long list of places and the list is alphabetical.

Upcoming - how to read the census 1828!

*On August 3 I changed the word had to owned.  However, I'm unsure what the situation was back in the day when it came to home ownership.  Were there home loans? I tend to think not.  These days we use the word had more loosely to include homeowners as those who still have a mortgage. Those who are RENTING or living on a noble's land as surfs in 1828 will appear on this census but not as LANDOWNERS and are thus not on this INDEX.

This post is part of a series.  To bring up all posts click on the tag: Gen Tips : 1828 Hungarian Census

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Sunday, September 8, 2019

MAKE TIMELINES FOR EACH OF YOUR ANCESTORS - WHAT WAS THE EFFECT OF PANDEMICS? STRATEGY #10

MAKE TIMELINES FOR EACH OF YOUR ANCESTORS -  WHAT WAS THE EFFECT OF PANDEMICS?  STRATEGY #10

I'm a believer in doing TIME LINES for each individual on your chart. Start a page when you find a record of the birth/baptism and add to it as you discover the birth of siblings, the death of parent's, remarriages and so on.  It helps to understand their individual lives.



The timeline begins with Birth and Baptism.

It can include First Holy Communion, or Confirmation, the Conversion to another religion.

It can include Military Service.

Marriage, and the birth of siblings and children that change the size of the family, and their Deaths.

The Remarriages, and thus the Step Parenthood.

Education.

Travel to another country - emigration or immigration.  What was their motivation?
Ship records - the name of the ship - what it looked like - what their voyage was probably like.
Naturalization Records - always great to have.  If you're just starting your genealogy for Industrial Era Immigration, the World War I draft registration (which included men who were not yet citizens) often has details such as the town or village and country the man left.

You also want to include:

Important times in History they lived through. Locally and in the larger world.

Do some research around these events.


For instance, were your family members involved in any Uprisings or Military Action, any Politics? 

Were they refugees?  Were they relocated?  Did they flee?


Sometimes this is a way of weaving family oral histories into your research and proof the oral histories.


As you add to the timeline, you start to get a feel for your ancestor's life. This is a much richer genealogy for her than charts that seem to only be about a person's direct genetic lines. You may also notice how long they lived, what they died of, and of any genetic patterns emerge.

Earlier I mentioned that if you are Hungarian or Hungarian American, then your ancestors managed to reproduce despite the population being decimated by invaders who killed off much of the population repeatedly.  THEY MAY ALSO HAVE BEEN SURVIVORS OF EPIDEMICS!

For instance, in about 1831/1832 I started finding a large number of illegitimate births in a particular small town.  Knowing that this was taboo, often resulting in a lowered status at a time when status was important and the way communities were organized, and also often resulted in higher rates of death for the children of a single mother, I wondered what had happened? Had the women been raped? Of course I can't know if they were or not - maybe I tripped across a town where people took to the woods and had an orgy - but then I learned that about this time CHOLERA was making its way through Europe and it was so frightening that a person could take ill suddenly in the morning and be dead by afternoon, having been perfectly healthy. Their vomiting was so intense that victims turned blue and then they dehydrated seriously causing organ failure. My suspicion is that there was so much death, so many graves being dug and so many funerals, all the while not knowing if you were next, so much fear, that many people responded to an instinct for life and had sex.

By the way, the tradition in Hungary is that BAPTISMALS and FUNERALS were for immediate family but WEDDINGS were for the village.

HISTORY CHANNEL ON CHOLERA PANDEMICS.

How did your family make it through the SPANISH FLU PANDEMIC of 1918, which took about 500 million people to death, more than died in World War I? 

SMITHSONIAN - HOW THE SPANISH FLU WENT AROUND THE WORLD
EXCERPT: The toll of history's worst epidemic surpasses all the military deaths in World War I and World War II combined. And it may have begun in the United States. 

I read this on one site: The Great Plague of 1738 was an outbreak of the BUBONIC PLAGUE between 1738- 1740 that affected areas in the modern nations of Romania, Hungary, Ukraine, Serbia, Croatia, and Austria.  On another, particular to Great Britain and Plague, well it turns out that decimation of populations actually relaxed class barriers to marriage.

Include the Pandemics on your timeline even if your ancestor lived through them!

Also of great interest to me as we face climate change is 1816 THE YEAR WITHOUT A SUMMER. The sun didn't make it through thick volcanic ash clouds around the world (including the United States) and there was crop failures, starvation, people moving to warmer locations.  The people did not understand what was happening and some took it to be End Times.  FARMERS ALMANAC 1816 YEAR WITHOUT SUN 

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All Rights Reserved including Internet and International Rights

This post is part of a series. To bring up all posts in the series, click on the tag GenTips: Hungarian- FamilySearch  

You can also follow along on other genealogy and family history posts about the Urbarium 1767, and there are a great number of useful links on the sidebar!  This concludes the series on using FAMILYSEARCH.  I will add to these posts with more information when possible. 


Saturday, August 31, 2019

OLD HUNGARIAN NAMING PATTERNS and ILLEGITIMACY - ORPHANS - SURNAMES : USING FAMILY SEARCH FOR HUNGARIAN GENEALOGY RESEARCH - STRATEGY #9

OLD HUNGARIAN NAMING PATTERNS and ILLEGITIMACY - ORPHANS -  SURNAMES :  USING FAMILY SEARCH FOR HUNGARIAN GENEALOGY RESEARCH - STRATEGY #9

WHAT'S IN A NAME?
 

My genealogy research experience shows that NAMING children, giving them a first name (also called a "given name") is very tied in with class and status in those pre-immigration Hungarian and Slovakian-held records. 


Yet one cannot assume that someone with a common name was considered to be a commoner. The father's status or profession is on those BAPTISMAL Records. If the mother was born a noble but the father is not, it will say so. This will be in evidence the further back from 1848/1849 you go and persists in many records forward of 1848/1849. On some records of the 1820's and before, there will be a record of status rather than profession i.e Nobilis, Subinquillis, etc. which can link you to that Urbarium 1767. 

For the average Hungarian - the farmers and craftsman and merchants and tradespeople - there seems to have been limited number of given names to use when naming the new baby. I've read that parents who experienced (and almost expected) that some of their children were going to die before ever reaching adulthood, the repetition of names was about the hope for a replacement child for the one who died. I think there was more tradition behind naming children.

For the high noble you will see the naming gets more exotic or original and it seems like the more names, the higher the status. For the average Hungarian you have Janos (John), Andras (Andrew), Istvan (Steven), Maria (Mary), Erszebet (Elizabeth), Anna (Ann).  If you find an Apollonia well, I've seen the name along with "illegitimate" recorded several times, but have also seen the name in centuries old genealogy charts. 

As far as an honorific name, it's usually that the first son will be named after a father, the first daughter named after the mother. However, the naming continues on predictably from there. The first son named Janos dies, the next son born will be given the name Janos. Ditto the first child named Maria, and so on. If you notice the same couple reusing a name that's a clue that you should look for the DEATH RECORD of the first children so named who died. 

Every once in a while I will see a Latinate mention that the son is a "Junior." This generally means the father with the same name is still alive.  As soon as he dies, Junior is no longer a Junior. If he has also named a son with his name, he is then the Senior and the younger is the Junior.

In Hungary two brothers who were born of different mothers - who were close - were called "brothers of a different mother."  Egy masik anya testverei.   

The commoner given names and order of names given are so repetitive I tend to think of them as Number One Son, Number Two Son, Number Three Son. Families that manage to have many children who survive into adulthood will start using more names but still, these names seem to be from the standard list. Zsuzsanna and Julianna and Rozalia may indicate that this child is a much younger daughter. But when you go into the records of wealthier, noble, you could say more worldly people, people who travel more, you find more diversity of given names, and a greater number of names for a child. Some of these names recall the Ancient Romans. Gyula (Julius) for an example, or Old Testament Bible characters (Ezekiel as an example.) 

The Germanic influence is that children be given more than one name from birth, usually two. This is a pattern that has become All American as well. Additionally, it's Germanic that a child might go through life being called by their middle or other name.

(The Ruthenians, also known as Carpathian Rusyn, have their own honorific naming pattern. A naming pattern can indicate an ethnicity.)

I notice that some Hungarian immigrants to the United States continued the Hungarian naming pattern. Others used the first original names in the family in hundreds of years for their American born!

After seeing so many single names on BAPTISMAL records, be careful when you see two names that you are not assuming it's one child with a first and middle name. Two sets of godparents are a clue if the priest has not written in a word for twins such as gemelli. (I found an indexed record for twin sisters that FAMILYSEARCH indexing has listed as one girl baby with two names.)

On occasion I see that the priest has written in that the child was "premature" and sometimes a death cross and date is on the record. Premature sometimes is included because the child was born close to the marriage date. Or the child was baptized by a midwife or someone else. Recently, one in which it was explained that a twin was born dead but the obstetrician baptized them both. That means the couple had means to have a doctor there at the birth which is unusual. 

Baba means midwife in Hungarian. 
Szulesz means obstetrician. 
Orvos means doctor.

Note that the BIRTH DATE is most often 2-3 days before the BAPTISMAL date in Hungarian records, but the baptismal could have been weeks or months after the birth. Sometimes a birth and baptismal date that is the same indicates the child was baptized right away because it was sickly or premature. Sometimes it was baptized the same day of birth because the priest made home visits or the chapel was down the street. Family members also baptized infants. The sacrament of Baptism was very important to Christians of every variety in the Old Country.

That the record is a "church record" does not mean the child was baptized in the building of the church. At a couple days old the parents might take the child over to the church but the child could have been baptized at the home in which they were given birth..  

Sometimes a family with means would take a child to the next town where the church was more impressive, the seat of the diocese, or simply had a larger seating capacity, and have a baptism there rather than their village church. Doing so was probably a little closer to our idea of Baptism today rather than the simple ceremony in a small village church or chapel.

Illegitimacy: If the record says the child is illegitimate but the a father's name appears this means that he has acknowledged he's the father. It's rare. Look for him in the records: The couple may be engaged and appear in marriage records later. He may just be a married man. (At the time the father's acknowledgement implied financial support and could also imply the child will have an inheritance.)

If there is no name - unknown father - well, as I have read about this - probably everyone in town knows who the father is - knows who has been meeting in the barn - or who has even raped a woman - the priest even knows - but cannot write that down.

Legitimacy was tied in with inheritance rights. It was a legal status and very important in a class conscious society. That the priest cannot change, no matter what his wisdom, belief, or feelings about a situation.  

Other notations I've seen about illegitimacy include a priest writing in that the girl - the mother - is a SERVANT.  I hate it but back in the day servant girls becoming pregnant by their employer or another man living in the house she worked in or around the farm were not uncommon. Sexual harassment in employment is not new. A servant girl was usually a young, innocent girl, an orphan or from a poor family. She had no defenders. She may have no inheritance coming - no dowry. Expectations that a poor girl would not resist the noble also came into play. The fact that people with small houses could have servants who lived in and slept across the room from the family and did not provide a separate room with a lock and key also meant unmarried sex.

Affairs: I came across one child marked illegitimate in which the GODPARENTS were a couple nobles : there's a story there. Also came across the mother of an illegitimate child who came from a rather noble family herself. More story. In wonderment I also located a noble woman who had seven illegitimate children!  Since they survived and seemed to have the usual spacing of a couple years apart (breastfeeding can prevent conception!) I call her "Someone's Mistress!"  Unlike the abandoned prostitute or sexually harassed and raped maid whose children usually died of starvation at a higher rate than usual (such suffering!) this woman was likely being supported by a man with another legitimate family, a noble, or baron. 

I have to wonder if the father was the Godfather and the Godmother knew it.

How many Godfathers were actually fathers and how many Godmother's knew it?

Did you know that the Old Country Hungarians sometimes had duels?

I think we all have notions that pre sexual revolution 1960's in the U.S. people were rather prim and proper and would not have sex unless married. But as I see illegitimate births on old records into the 1700's I ask WHY then? Little to no good contraception has something to do with it. 

A consequence of DNA tests versus good old fashioned genealogy is that affairs and rapes are revealed. 

One academic paper I read said that the better the times economically the more illegitimate children, the more children in general. Good crops, a good year for wine, more play! (I have to smile. I would rather these ancestors had moments of wild abandon than be unwilling participants of sex.)

In the church records I also see a lot of babies born to single women in the very late 1800's where the priest has written illegitimate "Father is in America." I imagine the promises made to wait and be sent for.  As you Magyar-Americans probably know, the streets here were not paved in gold after all. Our ancestors were a hard working people. Some of the men came to the United States to work in factories and then went back to Hungary to work in the fields for the summer. Some immigrant men - not just Hungarians - left their past behind including women they married - and started new families or were so ashamed of being unable to send money back that they disappeared.

In my own genealogy, I have an ancestor widower who married a pregnant noble woman who had been widowed during pregnancy. She was Lutheran. He Catholic. She is listed as Lutheran throughout her pregnancies thereafter. I wonder if they were having an affair before marriage or if he simply stepped up to be the father and man of the house to a pregnant woman. If a person didn't join the priesthood, the nunnery, the monastery and vow to celibacy, then they were married - and married - and married.  One paper I read said that three marriages was the official limit! (Let me know if you have evidence of someone who married more!)

Mention that the child is an orphan:  I've seen this on MARRIAGE RECORDS. In the 19th century though in Europe, an orphan was a child without a father - no one to support it - and that was part of the mentality that a child was owned by the father. However, if you see that someone is listed as an orphan, look for the deaths of both parents as it seems our more modern definition of an orphan as having no parents alive prevailed. Sometimes a remarriage of a parent is more subtle. One marriage record (circa 1802) says that Maria is the daughter of a man surname Sikora but throughout the other records her maiden surname is Simko. I'm seeking the death record of her birth father to proof this and a remarriage record for her mother. Sometimes if an unmarried mother died in childbirth or soon after the child is mentioned as an orphan on the BAPTISMAL record. We need to take the 19th century notion of an orphan into consideration and find the death records of the parents.

You may come across terminology such as FOUNDLING or BASTARD. My recent reading about illegitimacy in the 19th century and prior to this has clarified some things for me.  

A FOUNDLING was not necessarily also illegitimate and didn't have the same stigma. This was a child who was put out because the living parent(s) were too poor to care for it.  A foundling might be placed in an orphanage run by a convent. The infant didn't necessarily have to be exposed to the elements to be found. On the church steps would do. The idea was that the parents hoped someone would find it and keep it. 

I once read about a hospital in 19th century Paris that actually had anonymous infant drop off, sort of like our Legal Surrender Program in California. There was something like a revolving door on the outside of the hospital where a baby could be placed. Here in California, a desperate mother who cannot care for her child can walk into a fire station and drop it off and will not be prosecuted, unlike those who do throw a baby in a dumpster or on a roadside. Moses of the Bible was a Foundling. 

No doubt about it, an illegitimate child had status only higher than a slave. Illegitimate children tended to 1) also have illegitimate children 2) die at twice the rate as children born into a marriage, usually because the mother was too poor and alone in the world to feed it or had been abandoned or disowned by her family - so sad! 3) marry each other since they had the same status.

As a result of giving into wild abandon or being seduced and abandoned or raped and left devastated, a woman who had a child without a husband to support it lost her status. Her options for marriage were not so good. People who did not follow the custom of marriage first were suspected of being irresponsible because they had not thought of how they would keep their own offspring alive. I suspect that this may account for some noble women who had a child without a husband being married by commoners. As I understand it, and I suspect this may have depended on exactly when or where it happened, a woman who was born noble but married a commoner did not confer her status on her children. (But a father with no sons could give his daughter or daughters an inheritance.)

A bastard was defined as a child whose parents were not married at the time. We now say illegitimate, if we say it at all, to mean any child whose parents are not married to each other, whatever their marital status is. The priests tended to use "unknown father" rather than get into the details, but I've heard that some other researchers have found notes such as "child of the saddle" (!?!?!)  Actually that terminology indicates that the father passed through town as a soldier or other man on horseback - a traveler.

A child who was born a bastard or illegitimate as their legal status could become legitimate and able to inherit through the marriage of its parents later. Or, if the father had no other MALE HEIRS, he could chose to legally admit to his fathering, recognize the son as his own, and then the son could inherit.

When you look through nobility records you sometimes see that someone - with a rather common name - is also ALIAS another name. (In some texts another term is used such as mask.) This is usually meant to discern that a certain person HAS OTHER (often noble) FAMILY HERITAGE and is PART OF THAT OTHER FAMILY too or that they are part of a CLAN of names (who can also share crests or shields).  An alias or mask can also indicate that an adoption took place. Use of two surnames, one alias, happened also because of inheritance. The male line died out and a son in law or other relative inherited and thus carried both names.

One time I found a marriage record in Gonc-Ruska, Abauj County, Hungary that had an amazing notation. The bride was of noble birth - an incredibly prestigious name, but an ORPHAN. The translation, of the notes the priest made on the marriage record, said she and her groom were given a special dispensation to marry. Clearly this girl was marrying the brother - not blood - that she was raised with. The dispensation was not that they were raised together. It was that she was a noble and he was not, but, it said "the boy is a Knight!" I've wondered if that meant he was a Knight in Shining Armor to marry her or if this means his family was from the lower nobility while her surname indicates one of the highest nobility. You ask yourself "Why would that be any of the business of the Church?" Yet it was, because of the legalities implied by marriage, for the priest to make a notation that would support inheritance rights.

And I'm always reminded that we take for granted the progress of medical science, our personal cleanliness and that of the water we drink, the vaccines that are so effective because plague and other illnesses, not understood, were equal opportunity diseases, effecting all classes of people. We no longer think of these diseases as curses or think of people who had the ability to heal as witches.

I recently came across a record that on the marriage said something like "Janos Lakatos, son of Andras Toth and Maria Klein," clearly indicating that Janos had a different father than Andras Toth. Worth checking in a case like this is a previous marriage for Maria, and the death of the birth father.

A 20 year old man died with his parents already recently dead and so was marked on his DEATH RECORD that he died as an orphan. 

On one marriage record the Latin orphanus was included perhaps to explain that no family showed up from the bride's side.

As adoptions go, I believe these were generally informal, not requiring legal paperwork among commoners. A child would simply go live in with a family willing to take it in. Sometimes this was the Godparents, an uncle or aunt, sister or brother. Sometimes the informally adopting parents had enough love and food and sometimes they had a farm and worked the child. Children typically started working around the age of 10 around the house and farm. They were treated much more like adults when they became 13. 13 was the age of manhood or womanhood.  And so in medieval times and among those who didn't have to work for an income, 14 year old girls were betrothed, arranged to be married. Often their grooms were about the same age or a little older, sometimes much older. (That said, consummation was not always immediate and could wait until a ceremony. The families hoped the couple would naturally take to each other. While the older bride and groom were offered a time to be alone during their ceremony for this purpose.) 

To my amazement. I just found a church record for a village in what is now Slovakia in which the priest wrote out a whole paragraph about how the couple HAD LIVED TOGETHER WITHOUT MARRIAGE FOR FIVE YEARS on the marriage record and so their child was now legitimate!  I noted that the husband's rank was higher than the wife's. I can just imagine a scenario in which his family objects to the match and the couple agree to go against all morality and religion and live together to prove they are compatible. Maybe they waited till his parents died and he got his inheritance.

To read more about fertility and illegitimacy in Hungary read Ference Ajus' work called Illegitimacy in Hungary 1880-1910 which is available as a PDF download.

Try this link CITESEERX-PSU-EDU Ference Ajus Hungary

If anyone has seen civil or ecclesiastical adoption records from Hungary prior to 1920, please let me know!

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All Rights Reserved including Internet and International Rights
2025 Edited for clarity.

This post is part of a series. To bring up all posts in the series, click on the tag GenTips: Hungarian- FamilySearch