NOBILITY IN YOUR HUNGARIAN FAMILY? ETHNICITY and USING HUNGARICANA : GENEALOGY PRO TIP #3

The lists and books mentioned in the first and second posts of this series here at MAGYAR AMERICAN BlogSpot are not the only resources a researcher seeking nobility in the family can use and that's a good thing except for the difficulty in finding these resources in America or being able to read handwritten Hungarian documents which you can find in Hungary through the National Archives in Budapest or the user-friendly Hungaricana (a searchable database website also based in Hungary). And believe me, I've asked people who grew up reading, writing, and speaking Hungarian to look at print outs of old documents and read them for me and they gave up.

Let's face it. All languages change and evolve. Shakespeare's 16th century English is not ours and 16th century Hungarian isn't today's. Some of the documents are Medieval and sloppy and it's almost a miracle they still exist. If you can print out and make your way through an old document that was written by dipping a pen into ink and on precious paper or animal skin called vellum and sealed / notarized with red wax pressed with an official icon of a family crest, you will be proud of yourself and possibly rewarded with information.

We know that in 1920 Hungary was punished for World War I and lost 2/3rds of its territory. (I suppose punished is expressing an opinion but it's not an original one.) Some of the noble relatives you seek that we call Hungarian would be living in Slovakia or Romania if they remained on their ancestral estates today. Some of the descendants of old families are going back to renew or re-establish their estates.

First, what is an American ethnicity?

Therein you have an answer as to what was a Hungarian ethnicity. If you go back in your research successfully, you may find that way back in the day the "Hungarian" noble family was not identified as Hungarian by themselves or others, and I don't just mean Germans. German commoners were coming in after the Mongol Invasion and in waves after that and one family with a German, sometimes Jewish surname was established in Upper Hungary by the 17th century.

I mean that incoming to Hungary were Croation, Italian, Spanish, French, and Jewish people and some were or became nobles. 

I know there were colonies of Greeks, Italians, French, and Russians who settled in wine making areas. Why just import, why not grow? Some surnames translate to "Italian" - Olasz - or "Croation" - Horvat or "German" - Nemet.

So. Just as I'm an American but can also say I'm Hungarian -American, such a person back in the day could say they were Hungarian or Croation -Hungarian.

Reading around this subject, I became aware that there's controversy about Slovak nobles versus Hungarian nobles in Slovakia. There are groups of people who not only want to learn the truth of origins or heritage, it's become political. Some people are so upset with Democracy they want to have Kings (and Queens?) rule again.

If interested, there's presently a group called the Slovak Aristocracy Association and also a group for recognizing Carpathian nobility. (Sounds like a broader viewpoint.) There's also a group in Hungary that wants to return to recognizing Hungarian nobility and use of titles. Should you prove your heritage is noble, you might want to see about qualifying for these groups or joining as an interested person.

There's also a discussion about nobles back in history turning Hungarian names into Slovak or "Slavic" names. When I find szke endings turned into ski or sky, I wonder. 

One article I read argued so what if Hungarians Slavified their names while living among Slovaks, so what they were still Hungarian.  (And visa versa!)

Well, so many people have "Americanized" their names for various reasons and I don't find that suspicious.

My Questions:

How does/did the person self-identify? We should respect that.

What religion is/ were they? (Greek Orthodox more likely in Ruthenian or Slovak heritage but by 1900 one report stated 18% intermarriage between Roman and Greek Catholics. If your research takes you into the Carpathian Mountains there's many a Ruthenian (Rusyn) village there in what is now Slovakia. Nyitra County is now in Czech lands.

What language/s did they speak?

Where was the family stead when they were the landowner? What was the country called then? (You'll find Barons who owned land in multiple counties so it may be difficult to know from where they emerged. Generally, if the village was named after a family, it must have been theirs or they must have been in charge of it at some point.)

No doubt Hungarian settlements in the Kassa region of Slovakia or Transylvania region of Romania were /are real, even if ethnic Slovaks or Romanians were or are surrounding. People did business and socialized so the ethnic groups were not isolated or ghettoized. Like first generation immigrants into the United States, they preferred to live among others with the same languages, culture or life ways.

If a person left the Austrian Empire, what did they report on the steamship coming to America? Their native language and personal ethnic identity. Hungarian. And on their naturalization paperwork does it not say they gave up Austria, rather than Hungary? (Some are more detailed. For instance some say Austria Polish.)

So another way to look at this is from a research point of view. Hungarians who were living in Hungary, say Lipto County, up there on the Polish border of the Carpathian Mountains (where Ruthenians lived too) may or may not be Slovak but the documents that include them may be preserved in one or both countries. Original records made in Hungary. (For instance, the LDS/ FamilySearch database has church records for previous Hungarian Counties in the Slovak collection.)

Also, we tend to go past the name of the priest who wrote it all in. He may be writing in Latin or with a Latin twist. I find names such as Luby and Barran in Hungarian and Polish Austria records. 

Just to make life more interesting, some Hungarians moved to Poland and the Ukraine when Galicia existed as part of the Austrian Empire. Or just because. (Example: Hungarian noble Bathory is Batory in Poland.)

Borders weren't what they are today. People just walked or horse rode the paths or farm roads. While I see that in an attempt to unify people or homogenize culture in the past, people have been expected to give up language and culture, I tend to think people are stronger economically when cooperative. 

So you may just find your research, nobility or common, takes you outside changing borders and ethnic definitions (and assumptions) for this and one other reason. Nobles intermarried across ethnic or national identity. Status and wealth and power were more important and sometimes arranged marriage was for the purpose of political alliance as well. (Think about that as you watch the reality show Married At First Sight!) Your noble ancestors' records may exist in more than one country and even take you around Europe or the world!

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All Rights Reserved including Internet and International Rights

This post is part of a series on Hungarian Nobility research. It is based on the knowledge I've acquired over many years of reading, research, and experience. To pull up the series click on the tag Pro Tips - Hungarian Nobility in the Family

PURDUE UNIVERSITY LIBRARY - DOWNLOADABLE LIST OF HUNGARIAN NOBILITY SURNAMES

NOBILITY IN YOUR HUNGARIAN FAMILY? THE NAGY BIBLE OF NOBILITY : GENEALOGY PRO TIP #2

Some large American city libraries have the series of books published by Ivan Nagy that give some detail about many of the noble families of Hungary.

There are some generational charts and some Heraldry in the collection. However, connection from your American family to these nobles is still iffy and hobbyist genealogists should hold themselves to professional standards and not turn family rumors, guesswork or leaps of faith into charts - especially not posting to one or many databases or on-line website charts. I see so many without documentation all over (like a virus) and when I see that I think "well maybe but until I see the documents this is a time waster." (I've seen some with infuriating inaccuracies.)

Now I recently found Nagy's volume that contains letters T through Z in Google Books and found a couple families of interest but believe me until I had a breakthrough a couple years ago I had absolutely no idea there might be a connection to two noble families in what is now Slovakia. Like many of you, missing records are a frustrating for me.

It seems other volumes of Nagy's work are here and there and some are missing indexes in the end. Published in 1863 and titled "The Noble Families of Hungary, Their Coats Of Arms and Generation Tables" it's called a Bible. But believe me it is not. It can be helpful or encouraging but your documents must go back at least till 1869 or earlier to find this useful. That said, sometimes we can find the links we seek going forwards from the earlier dates on generational charts. Nobility cared to keep track of lineage and so there is a chance of such charts substituting for missing church records.

Here's the negatives:

First, while a well regarded collection, it does not contain each and every Noble Hungarian person or family.

Second, it's in Hungarian and you may need a translation. (I have yet to figure out how to cut and paste from the PDF into a translator.)

Third, many charts do not include the women or only have given names of women. 

I have no way of knowing if a person named as a child but not showing marriage or offspring died without issue or the chart is incomplete.

Fourth, it cannot possibly include anyone born after 1869. 

Recall 1848 is when the Hungarian Revolution ended nobility privledges though not social status. (The freeing of the serfs also meant that many with estate owners could no longer afford to hold onto their estates. An agricultural way of life was ending. 

However, you can check the 1828 census to see if a person or family, listed by the name of the head of the family, had any "slaves." You can see the diversity of holdings in the Marie Theresa census.*

For some Hungarian Americans missing Hungarian census and other records may make it impossible, but don't give up too soon. 

Keep reading.

C 2021 Magyar American BlogSpot

All Rights Reserved including Internet and International Rights

This post is part of a series on Hungarian Nobility research. Pro Tips - Hungarian Nobility in the Family*Search this blog for lots of information on the 1828 census (available on Familysearch) and the Marie Theresa census (available through Hungaricana).

NOBILITY IN YOUR HUNGARIAN FAMILY? INTRO SURNAMES : GENEALOGY PRO TIP #1

As some of you know, I write a lot about genealogy research for Americans who can trace their heritage back to Hungary. It is through research both personal to me and for others, which includes historical and cultural research, that I've been able to reattach to and recognize just how Hungarian - American I am. Along the way I try to address stereotypes that are silly, ridiculous, or so true - hopefully you like my sense of humor. I look at present day life in Hungary.  I provide lots of links, many on my sidebar are of cultural interest. I offer some opinion and stories about my life, especially life with my dog, and other areas of interest.

Due to Covid restrictions I haven't been able to physically go to libraries to do my research in over a year but if you're into genealogy there's plenty for you to read in this blog that might be of help to you.

Yesterday afternoon and all this morning I read web sites that seem new to me that were coming up when I searched for some surnames and places I've looked for many times over the years. It used to be difficult to find much on Hungary in general but that's changing. I was excited to see on- line a booklet about a village (Nagygeres) that figures in my research that was published in 2014. It gave me a greater sense of the lives of the people there in the past and today.

Then I found an online PDF file which is downloadable. Now I've looked at this same file before but I was excited to see it is a 2021 edition implying corrections and additions have been made and that it's an ongoing project.

It is the work of an educated, scholarly man named Steven Totosy de Zepetnek and yes he comes from Hungarian nobility. It's called "List of Historical Surnames of Hungarian Nobility. (Nobilitas Hungarian). He and this online list is associated with Perdue University in the state of Indiana

Now I'm going to give you a little information on why you might find nobility in your humble family of interest.

First, as an American, even if your immigrant ancestor came in as a noble, they gave up all titles and allegiance to other countries and Kings upon becoming citizens. So, no you will not become a noble. (And Hungary ended nobility titles in 1947.) You may find a family crest, shield, or motto. These can be of great interest but as art or history.

Second, nobility itself was abolished in 1919 in the Austrian Empire in the sense that the nobility no longer had "special privileges." Back in the day of Barons, Counts, and Knights, with and without vast estates, only these men could vote. (The change in law couldn't change your heritage and it's my sense that some social and cultural privileges lingered.)

Third, there were different ways to become a noble in the first place. Being from a founding tribe or family early on (such as before the Mongol Invasion) circa 12th - 13th century was a way. Being recognized as having performed exceptional service (implied in a military fashion) by a King was another and a reward of a land grant was common. Marriage or through inheritance was another way to gain or maintain nobility and that often meant reward such as a land or title inheritance. (The rules of nobility are that the father's rank was given to his children. A noble woman who married a common man wouldn't loose her rank but her children were not nobles. A woman who married "up" shared her husband's status and their children were nobles. (But only noble men were voting and involved in making the important decisions.) Obviously, this must have kept pressure on noble women to marry their own.

Also nobles from neighboring European countries sometimes moved in, buying property. During the Austrian Empire, not only were men newly enabled, Counts from Austria moved in. (Their surnames are Germanic.)

However, all the upheavals of invasions, wars, and politics also effected families, noble or not. People fled, moved, had their property seized or destroyed, soldiers died, women were raped and bore illegitimate children. People were murdered, and houses burned and castles were taken. So, some noble lines died out or were carried on in the female line.

When researching, you soon learn many documents don't even name the wives, don't even give the names of mothers of children being baptized unless they are noble women and even then in some cases that Matriarchal DNA source isn't named. 

Some nobles were granted status by Austria (late) while others can go back into pre–Mongol Invasion history.

It's something worth finding though because if you've been working on your genealogy and family history project and feel engaged with it, you want to keep on going.

Because Hungary had a higher percentage of nobles (and an array of noble standing) than other European countries it's more likely you do have a noble in your heritage and will find a story worth including in your personal book.

The right to vote was important. You might learn that your ancestors took part in revolution, law making, religious conversion, debate, science, education, or medicine. (Have the last few years of politics in America and the pandemic put you on edge?)

Hold that thought.

About the list:

The list of nobles' surnames is long. Some of the names are quite common, others more exotic sounding. It doesn't say where their family origin was though a name like Mariassi de Markusfalva or Bornemissza de Szendro do.

A negative is that no genealogy charts or reference to where documents were or are found is given. This long list is a starting place.

Finding a surname on it does not mean your ancestor with that name was noble. And they could have been a noble who was poor and struggling, landless, and so eager for opportunities in another country.

You will find many a common name on the list, lots of Nagy's and Kis.

C 2021  Magyar-American BlogSpot

This post is part of a series on Hungarian Nobility research Click on the tag Pro Tips - Hungarian Nobility in the Family to bring up all posts,

APRIL 2023  More Information:  The National Archives of Hungary boasts an ever expanding collection of resources including digitalized resources. 

HUNGARICANA   

PURDUE UNIVERSITY LIBRARY - DOWNLOADABLE LIST OF HUNGARIAN NOBILITY SURNAMES

Links checked December 2023

MARS PERSEVERANCE PARTY

A little celebration. Cupcakes with a sprinkling of Stardust and Mars rocks... Not the best picture but we're trying. As a friend who knows much more about the universe, space technology and exploration than me says, a thousand things have to go just right. We'll be watching YouTube and the NASA channel starting around 12:45 Pacific Coast time. My friend is quite a optimist and science minded person. He doesn't believe in Martians or pyramids on Mars. I'm not as sure...

How can we look forward life in micro terms but not gigantic or primates or mammals?

HUNGARIAN HEART - HAPPY VALENTINES DAY!

 

VACCINES AND COVID BURNOUT

The Covid-19 crisis goes on and on and on into 2021 and like you I'm burned out on it, am suffering, and am wondering when I will be able to get a vaccine. Although I think my chances of having a bad reaction are small, I still have anxiety and fear. I'm hoping to take it without hours long wait. 

What have I been doing besides blogging? Trying new recipes, especially soups. Working on my genealogy. Reading news a bit addictively; it's a way to participate in the world when you can't get out much. Walking with and without my dog. Crocheting dog sweaters. Learning new stitches. Going through closets and putting things aside for donation. (A couple local thrift stores reopened.) Using a little of my Economic Stimulus charge card to buy new clothes and shoes; so much is imported from China it's not funny. I'm very worried about American jobs. I think Thank You United States of America every day. Listening to PBS news hour and, judiciously, watching films. Sleeping poorly. Writing long letters though I probably won't send most of them. Volunteering to bag groceries at a food bank once a week. Taking some groceries to a neighbor who works nights. Sweeping leaves and taking them out to green bins. Attending Zoom meeting church though I just don't feel much into it anymore. Missing friends and wondering if we still will be after so much distance for so long. I wish I could say loosing weight. 

Thinking about:

Taking a class, catching up on reading (a stack of books), what it would be like to not worry, go on a vacation, sleep well.

C 2021

SZAMOS CHOCOLATE MUSEUM in BUDAPEST : WONDERFUL PLACES IN HUNGARY #6

TRAVEL WAITS : CHOCOLATE MUSEUM SZAMOS in BUDAPEST 

The Godiva of Hungary, a family owned business...

Excerpt : That's right, a chocolate museum!  You'll sometimes see it described as a marzipan museum, and the confusion in understandable. Szamos has a marzipan museum and workshop in the Hungarian town of Szentrendre.  Marzipan, a moldable paste of ground almonds and sugar, is nearly as common as chocolate in Budapest.  It plays a key role in flavoring and decorating confections and cakes around the country and is hallmark flavor of Szamos' treats.  It's unique texture makes it the perfect material to craft edible decorations, such as miniature fruits, animals, and flowers. 

Note: I've redone this post that suffered from my attempt to post via a cell phone. 

Click on the label Wonderful-Hungary to get to the entire series on this theme.

STORM OVER EUROPE : THE WANDERING TRIBES : MAGYAR AMERICAN FILM SERIES REVIEW

An excellent four-part series, STORM OVER EUROPE focuses on the migration of Germanic tribes from what was as far north as Denmark and Norway south and throughout present-day Europe and into Tunisia (Africa but not far from Sicily). There is a lot of information to learn so you may want to take it slow or rewatch the series over time.

The Goths - Ostrogoths - Visigoths. The Vandals. The Franks. The Anglo - Saxons. For some their wish was to live with the Romans or live like them: Romans lived in relative luxury and their legal system was desirable. And Italy was thought to have excellent resources.

The winters in their Germanic homelands were harsh and resulted in wintery starvation. Their leaders lead them on foot slowly migrating to find a new place to settle. Forty years - three generations - or more - and then they'd start migrating again.

But as has been the history of the world, it's not so easy to find a place vacant of people who got their first. Bloody battles resulting in the death of thousands over centuries occurred, each changing the course of history. The Roman Empire was vast. The Romans were not going to easily give up their power or allow fast assimilation.

This is also a story of Paganism and Christianity and how Catholicism won out.

In some cases the Germanic people were slaves. In others they dominated, mating with local women and reducing the Y DNA of the native male population.

I was surprised to know that France and Spain were so Germanic. Ok. The Franks are France, Brittany Celtic, but I think of French culture and language differently. I think of the culture and language of France and Spain as Latin just as I do Italy.

Of interest especially to my Hungarian and Hungarian - American readers, the Huns and their Attilla are part of the story. From Scandinavia to the Black Sea area, the Visigoths would make it to the South of France but the Huns attacked them there. And sometimes Germanic tribes found themselves on opposite sides and battled each other. But it was the Germanic tribes that finally sent the Huns back to their Asian base, according to this series.

Here are some positives in this series;

Archeologists from all over Europe are studying graves and grave goods and their work is profiled. 

A skull collection at the Hungarian Natural History Museum in Budapest is brought forward due to the talents of a forensic artist anthropologist who recreates the faces so we can see what people from the 6th century looked like, including Huns. (They practiced skull elongation.)

Gorgeous finds of jewelry, crowns, helmets, swords, buckles, bows and arrows prove that each culture was sophisticated enough to have high caliber artisans even if they thought of the other culture as "barbarian." 

The quality of the production is high. The costuming, war wounds, hair styles, authentic. 

However, I ran the English text on screen and there were some translations that were so wrong from the spelling of Attila to the spelling of the Tisza River and there was no mention of Magyars or other non-Germanic tribes associated with Hungarians.

So according to other sources the Hunnic empire stretched over Central Europe in the fifth century. The Huns and the Romans were enemies. The Huns were actually a number of tribal groups that did not include the Magyars. ... Direct descendants of Attila, Prince Almos and Prince Arpad became founders of Hungary generations later. King Istvan was a fifth generation descendent of Almos.

Only episode 4, which dwells on the Anglo Saxons mentions DNA. DNA is, to me, the most revealing story of migration and culture.

C 2021 Magyar American - BlogSpot

HUNGARIAN FLAMING HEART